Many of the women in ministry I know speak often about how difficult it has been to talk about sex in the church, much less acknowledge their own sexual desire. I have seen myself how often single black male preachers get the dating hook up: people introduce their daughters and nieces, women of the church cook for them, etc. But if you are a black woman and a preacher, you are treated much differently. Black women in ministry are expected to be asexual beings, not human beings that were created to have any type of sexual expression. And heaven forbid if you are a single woman in ministry with children, or have any sexual expression that is not heterosexual. Needless to say, for too many women, the black church has not been a safe space to express any kind of healthy black sexuality. We know there is sexual abuse in the church, and unfortunately, like Grace’s sister experienced, sometimes pathology in the church is not only never addressed or dealt with, it gets packed away and covered with a lot of Christian sayings.
Does “Greenleaf” remind you of any of your own personal experiences with the black church? How?
Kimm:
Yes. And I know it’s entertainment, but I feel in many ways the Black church is reflected. I’ve witnessed the whole “church ran like a family business” storyline, saints hiding behind “God is good” and “I’m blessed,” “touch not my anointed,” “do my prophets no harm” used as an excuse to avoid accountability; and greed disguised as a prosperity message. It is so deep and these messages can be harmful.
Jade:
My short answer is “Yes” and my long answer would be a treatise. Greenleaf does a good job pointing to a “hush culture” that often happens in these spaces—‘hush’ about whose pockets the money is going into. ‘Hush’ regarding forms of abuse that are going on, specifically against women—from the pulpit and outside of the pulpit. “Hush” surrounding the LGBTQI community, the image of God in their lives, and their right for ethical employment. I’m glad that Greenleaf is addressing many of these issues and giving a platform for these things to be discussed, and hopefully, rectified.
CF:
I like your connotation of the hush culture. In my own church experiences, I have seen this over and over again, from the same gender loving music minister forced to listen to fire and brimstone sermons about ‘the homosexual lifestyle,’ to the child in church everyone knows is the product of a married deacon having sex with a woman not his wife, to the pregnant teen brought before the church for her sin, like the woman taken in adultery in John 7:53-8:11. There is an unfortunate pattern of shaming the woman and excusing the man.
There are a lot of people who will look at these flaws and failures of church life and reject it in its entirety. Some of the conversations I’ve heard about “Greenleaf” almost always have some variation of “this is why I don’t go to church.” Has this been true for you? Why or why not?
Kimm:
Moment of transparency: I think sometimes we can see too much. Especially when you are a person who view things from a systemic standpoint and looks at patterns that aren’t beneficial to communities. There are some issues that I believe made me question the teachings and thought systems of many congregations. So I empathize with those who feel this way. Personally, it may be reason for me to say, “this is why I don’t go to THAT church,” but not church as a whole.
CF:
I agree with you there, Kimm. I’d rather go to church with a few hypocrites than be in hell with all of them, as my grandmother used to say. What about you, Jade?
Jade:
It’s been true for me at another stage in my life. I can see the ability for transformation and deep healing in the church. I appreciate, love, and respect the Black church—and I think that’s why I so often call it on its shenanigans.
CF:
Thank you for saying that. We don’t critique the church out of malice; we critique it out our love for it.
Jade:
However, what I need on my personal healing journey, at this moment, is to explore the different forms of church and fellowship that God has placed in my life. So, this means, that on any given Sunday, I could be in a formal church space: worshiping, singing, and listening to the preached word (providing that it is substantive and not marginalizing).
But I could also be at brunch with good friends I’ve chosen to walk alongside me in this part of my journey. I could also be at “Bedside Baptist,” understanding the importance of rest. I could be meditating, dancing, any number of things, and I don’t believe that God is interested in petty-punishments for any of those things.
CF:
Now let’s shift the conversation to sex and the single preacher. Bless Great Mother Oprah for giving us an opportunity and outlet by which to discuss the very real sexual activity that we know is going on in the church but is not necessarily talked about through this storyline of Grace and Noah, which gives us a beautiful, smart, and sexually active black female preacher. Now that is truly something you don’t see every day.
Jade:
I want to say that the scene between Gigi and Noah (affectionately called Eric Benet by far too many people I know) was one of the hottest scenes in the series! It spoke to the Sex-Positivity Diva that I embrace within myself. Yet, it was also conflicting – not because Pastor Greenleaf was getting her (sexual) life – but because Noah was / is on the verge of getting married! So, I was on the edge of my seat, speaking to Gigi through my screen like, “Yaas! Get your life! Especially after all these other Greenleaf’s have put you through, get yours!” But then you remember, that’s someone else’s partner (and from my understanding of the show’s script, they are not in a polyamorous or open relationship).
These feelings brought to mind something that blogger and theologian, Jarell Wilson, said on a panel about Detoxifying Christianity. The nexus of sexuality and spirituality was called into the space, and someone directly named Sex Positivity (which I agreed with loudly and enthusiastically). However, Jarell really challenged us to add the notion of Sexual Integrity into that framework. This doesn’t mean that our sexuality should be policed and repressed. This doesn’t mean integrity or purity by way of celibacy or abstinence only. This framework meant that, while we get our lives sexually (however that looks or doesn’t look), we need to be sure to “Love our neighbor as ourselves” in those moments. We need to honor our own desires and the consensual desires of our partner. We need to ask, “Am I honoring the dignity and humanity of everyone involved in this situation?”
Good television means that there has to be some sticky circumstances and conflict. So, I think this was the intent of the writers. You get the shoulder-roll / mischievous grin moments when I saw the sparks between Noah and Gigi… but then you get that Kelly Price “As We Lay” realness the next morning. Figuring out your sexual ethics as a grown single woman of faith sometimes includes all of the above, so I think it’s an important part of the show’s storytelling process.
CF:
Jade yasss! The sexual situation Grace has put herself in (as well as Noah) is not a measure of behavior that we are being encouraged to emulate. I agree about the need for storyline trajectory but also, infidelity is a part of church life too…as all human responses and actions are. Grace’s character is the “stepping on your toes” part of the sermon. Even the most earnest believer can find him or herself on the side of wrong. Thank God that God has more grace than we have sin. I do believe that if we give weight to the amount of words Jesus spoke about how we treat others, there is more concern for how their actions could impact and hurt Isabel than the sex act itself.
Kimm:
I love the beauty in her name, Grace. Everything about this character symbolizes and calls us to look through the eyes of grace. Grace is complex. I’m not sure I would call her sexually active based on the one occasion she shared with Noah (someone who is, presumably, ‘the love of her life’). When Grace tells Noah, ‘you’re home to me,’ it shows so much familiarity and comfort with him. From the time Grace came back home, Noah has shown a love and support that has not been matched by no other person in the Greenleaf family (and sadly not her own biological mother.)
CF:
Kimm, you just preached a word and a half right there. I think what Grace represents in many ways is the longing we have to be known and appreciated for our authentic selves. Even in church, we must wear the mask…and no one shows that better than Lady Mae. You are so right, Kimm! Lady Mae has not shown much grace to Grace! (At some point, I will blog about why I loathe the term “first lady” being used as church hierarchy.)
Jade:
Yes, what encourages me about the character development of Grace “Gigi” Greenleaf is that she takes the Divine seriously. You see it in the honesty she shows with her daughter, as they talk about some of the absolutely violent things that happen in the Bible. You see it in the way that she offered a grieving family a ministry of Presence, without trite churchy-sayings. You see it in the way she cares for her small group, The Daughters of Tamar, by giving them a safe space to share and continue their healing. You can see it in her advocacy for the members who have been abused. This is a woman that is about justice, about faith, and about the complexities of all of it. This resonates with me.
CF: Clearly, this show is resonating and I am glad for that. We will continue having Greenleaf discussions, as the show has already been picked up for season 2! Once again, thank you Kimm D. Lett and Jade T. Perry for contributing your thoughts to this dialogue. You can find their digital footprints at www.kimmdlett.com and @kimmdlett; and jadetperry.com and @Jade_T_P.